As a health coach specializing in ancestral eating (paleo, keto, carnivore) I am aware of the vegan hate and detest it. Vegan diets can work for some people, and I while ancestral principals have worked best for me I think any diet that avoids processed carbohydrates, seed oils and added sugars can lead to increased health. I can't get on board with vegans who demonize saturated fats, however, but am willing to discuss.
One area of crossover that I think would be beneficial for both grouups is the subject of factory faming. Both are despised. Ancestral health folks get their animals from small farms and often try animal husbandry themselves. Grass fed and pasture raised are ideal. I know there is a huge barrier here in the fact that the ancestral crowd are killing and eating animals, and I again I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the neccessity of some of these foods for some people's health (ex-vegan here) but if people could respectfully put aside differences here I think we could do a lot to help bring back small farms and animal husbandry.
I know many vegans are against processed foods and seed oils (although they get lumped into a category with them). I know processed food is bad and attempt to eat non-processed food as much as possible. So many people are on the same side in many respects but get caught into this in-fighting that seems to keep us from ever getting anywhere.
Many vegans would love for there to at least be small farms with better treatment (no life-long torture). It would be a major step in the right direction. But I think many ethical vegans are heavy on the drama of trying to be a "Savior" that they won't put aside their differences to join those like you.
I lightly wrote about this from a different angle, but am in agreement. It's insane how divisive this is and part of people's entire identity. I respect coming at it from a spiritual place as I try to do the same and as such my diet is changing. The family get together's and peer pressure on either side is awful and I fail sometimes at holding msyelf to my own standards. The obsessive aspect of it really drives me nuts. I know people on both sides that constantly proselytize as if either diet will save them and they are like preachers of the dinner plate that forget to bless the food. I've come to know that for me, going to any extreme never feels right and what my body needs changes with the seasons. I have many other thoughts on this too from my own experiences where people I thought were reasonable and logical went into these extremes then began pushing aggressively their way or the highway as if they know what's best for EVERYONE and we all should eat the SAME thing as them daily...(on both sides of the spectrum)..I appreciate people who know who they are and stand by it, but what I've witnessed is a vast delusion. Love what you said about "studies" - suddenly a lot of the natural and alternative health activists trust studies which makes me go, huh?
People definitely identify as what they eat a lot. My family was really good about this, so it's a fake example, but in our family there's a family recipe for "hamburger" of sorts. My grandfather owned a bar where he served it. So, for this fake example, my family could have been upset that I would deny the family heritage by refusing to eat the meal my grandfather created. People get that upset, as if you're somehow saying they are "evil" by you choosing to personally not eat meat.
I don't know if it was always this way. Or if in the past couple of decades people have leaned into identity politics and the Drama Triangle dynamics so much it's spilling over into their food choices and how they react with others' food choices.
It is really a "Savior" mentality that pops up, a lot. I don't get why we can't just let others make their own choices. Why do we have to mettle and mock? Of course, by "we" I mean humans in general. I'm glad for your comment. Thank you.
This is a big topic. I am a Christian and also believe in animal rights and ethical veganism. They are not contradictory; they are complimentary. The theologian Andrew Linzey literally wrote the books on this topic, several of them. There is a Heaven and a Hell and animals go to Heaven (Isaiah 11:6-7). The are part of Creation and God loves them. There are so many verses -- as well as our experience in life - that seems to confirm this. I do not view our species as superior; we have power and free will and thus are responsible, as Noah was. God has a Noahic covenant with Creation and the animals.
I left the animal rights movement several years ago because it was taken over by people who misused it for a secular Leftist agenda that included misandric (man-hating) feminism, cultural Marxist race-baiting -- all wrapped up in the guise of "intersectionality." Absolute garbage, and a crying shame that a movement dedicated to helping animals was co-opted in this way. The Lefist worldview is not good I have learned the hard way. It is now a world religion that has taken over all our institutions, but this is not good. But that's another topic. I still believe in helping animals -- including not eating them, since we don't have to, to be healthy. I now view it through a Christian lens. For example, it is wrong to abort human beings; that is murder because the unborn have souls. I see animals in the same light. This is not downgrading humans; it is simply recognizing that other sentient beings have a right to live and be happy and we have a moral duty to them.
I know most Christians don't share this belief, but I know it's right to help animals and not harm them. It's more correct to say that Christians believe it's good to help animals but are not consistent in this practice in terms of how they live -- especially diet. That having been said, we should not be self-righteous or consider ourselves morally superior. We are all sinners, as St. Paul said in Romans. No one is righteous, not one. I have lapsed into sin in my life; we all have. But "if you love me" (God said) "you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15). That includes not committing murder. Many will say killing animals is not murder, but it is. They are alive, they have souls, they want to live. They are people, just of a different species. The Parable of the Good Samaritan is about extending Christian charity to others not like you.
Yes, I believe it is murder to kill a defenseless animal, unless your very survival depends on it -- which in 99.9% of the cases it does not in this day and age. People in the ancient Middle East needed to eat animals to survive; we do not. Paying someone else to do it and pretending it's okay -- how is that different?
But unlike the animal rights world, which can be all-encompassing and a religion unto itself -- even a form of idolatry akin to pantheism -- Christianity is certainly bigger than one cause or issue. It includes love for humanity as well, which many AR activists fail to do: they become misanthropes, haters of humanity. That is not godly. I was once a misanthrope who -- like many ARAs -- wanted humanity to die out for the sake of the animals, but that was wrong. God loves all of us, human and non-human, and grieves when we harm one another, I believe. Above all, faith means commitment to God, who is prior to and above all of Creation; but respecting Creation and animals should be part of what it means to be faithful.
Animals suffer and die in the trillions, many at our hands. The good thing though is that animals, who are close to God, go to Heaven when they die. They are "groaning" for release from the suffering of Creation and reunification with God. Romans 8:22: "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." They leave a world of suffering and go to Heaven. Still, it is wrong, I believe, to murder them. Let them live and enjoy life, and help them where one can. Rescue dogs and cats, support groups that do so, and minimize one's harmful impact if possible.
Heaven is filled with countless numbers of animals, called the Peaceable Kingdom. Christians will find themselves vastly outnumbered by all the animals there and it will be a humbling experience for them -- if they are allowed in! I also suspect that many of us humans will go to Hell, and will be in for a shock when suffering the kinds of torture we reserved for animals in this life. I could be wrong about all this, but having experienced love from animals and loved them as a parent would a child, I am fairly certain that God loves them and it's our duty to help and protect them. The love that people give to dogs and cats should be extended to all sentient species, as a moral duty.
Wow. Thank you for the very well thought-out comment! It could have been a Substack article on its own.
I agree that we were meant to take care of the animals, as they were created to be our companions, not food. I have written about that on my "Christian" substack. I don't agree with some of the Christian things you mentioned, but debating theology is not the reason I wrote this.
I do believe animals go to heaven and there will be a reward for the suffering they've been put through. Even if people want to eat meat, that could be done without the factory farms that are like torture facilities. It's a shame that humans have so little care for animals that they are willing to torture them, but I do believe there is a spiritual consequence for that. I leave the consequences up to God and refuse to involve myself in the drama of it all like animal rights activists (ARA) do.
I agree that the ARA go crazy with the leftist agendas, which are drama triangle perspectives. It's because they're trapped in that sort of thinking that I wouldn't want to be aligned with them either.
Thanks! It's a huge topic. I have been meaning to not only write an article on it, but actually a whole book on it. Christian faith and animal rights both gave meaning to my life. I was ten years in the AR movement, then became a Christian after having left it, when its politics deviated from the cause of animals and veered in the wrong direction.
I was fortunate to learn of Andrew Linzey's books, so it was a seamless transition. Being a Christian I now believe in the afterlife and have the consolation of knowing (or more precisely hoping for knowledge of) something greater than this life, a reunification with God, who is Love (1 John 4:8).
It helps to know that I don't have to save the world by myself (a burden many secular activists feel very deeply) because as Jesus said "“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33). As bad as it is -- and it is bad for the world and animals and humanity -- God still triumphs in the end. This however does not lessen our moral duty to act righteously.
But I have to admit I found consolation in the idea that as bad as it is for animals, they go to God when they die. I think many of them know that and are glad to go there, to be released from a life of captivity and pain - like an old dog I once had who suffered in old age and was happy the day she died; she knew her release was immanent and she thanked me for being her parent. She had a soul and surely must be in Heaven now.
I saw a video by a man who died and came back -- see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoG0Gh1WB0s -- in his experience of death he met God and though a sinner was given a second chance. Part of that second chance was to respect Creation and animals and to approach life with humility. An incredible lesson! I wrote to him and he wrote back saying his testimony had touched many over the years.
All this came about because I lost two dogs who were very dear to me. They were my life. I still think about them every day -- and I have more dogs now, whom I love a great deal. The grief I went through was terrible so I turned to prayer and became a Christian, despite having been an agnostic for decades and even having studies atheism and dismissed Bibllical literaism as simple-minded. But I was wrong to do so.
I tried different form of Christianity but now go to an evangelical church and admire the faith and dedication of some of the people who attend it whereas in my past life I was arrogant and looked down on such people as ignorant -- just as many Christians tend to dismiss vegans. I believe I am the only person there who does not eat meat and they accept that as a "personal choice" -- though it is not just that because my choice is morally motivated.
I was in a Bible study recently where the topic came up and they were quite receptive to the idea that God loved animals and we should respect and love them. I raised the issue of diet and no one contradicted me. It was food for thought for all of us. Everyone makes choices in life and must live with the consequences. I know for myself that includes not harming animals -- though I have not been perfect in this regard. I even hunted animals at one time, long ago, and had no regard for them. I believe I will answer for that and other sins one day. So I have nothing to gloat about. I am a sinner. In the end, God knows everything, all that we have done and thought and said. It's called "the book of life" (Romans 20:12) and we will judged on what's in it, I believe.
I will check out the video. I made videos about veganism and Christianity obviously when I was studying it and more on YouTube. I just added an article on Substack the other day refuting the supposed biblical claim that veganism is a "Doctrine of demons." If you've ever heard that you might want to check it out. https://leavesofthetree.substack.com/p/is-veganism-a-doctrine-of-demons
In the comment section I also added a link to a video "The Forbidden Fruit was meat" which is an interesting discussion you might be interested in. This is the video link: https://youtu.be/7EBfPhSJFXE?si=_7TZQVgzHUI0zb1v
I make the distinction between people sharing their meals and posting anti-vegan dunking material. So, no. Edit: I looked back at notes, and saw this 2 minutes after writing. This is one of the dunking on vegans notes: https://substack.com/@enteringmanhood/note/c-69822774
I see some vegans and vegetarians suffering. That's why I recommend that those people consider the possibility that veganism and vegetarianism is not right for them. If you are healthy then you are doing the right thing.
Are the vegans and vegetarians asking for help? If someone isn't asking for help and you look at them as if they're "suffering" you might be taking on the "Savior" role looking for a "victim."
As a health coach specializing in ancestral eating (paleo, keto, carnivore) I am aware of the vegan hate and detest it. Vegan diets can work for some people, and I while ancestral principals have worked best for me I think any diet that avoids processed carbohydrates, seed oils and added sugars can lead to increased health. I can't get on board with vegans who demonize saturated fats, however, but am willing to discuss.
One area of crossover that I think would be beneficial for both grouups is the subject of factory faming. Both are despised. Ancestral health folks get their animals from small farms and often try animal husbandry themselves. Grass fed and pasture raised are ideal. I know there is a huge barrier here in the fact that the ancestral crowd are killing and eating animals, and I again I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the neccessity of some of these foods for some people's health (ex-vegan here) but if people could respectfully put aside differences here I think we could do a lot to help bring back small farms and animal husbandry.
I know many vegans are against processed foods and seed oils (although they get lumped into a category with them). I know processed food is bad and attempt to eat non-processed food as much as possible. So many people are on the same side in many respects but get caught into this in-fighting that seems to keep us from ever getting anywhere.
Many vegans would love for there to at least be small farms with better treatment (no life-long torture). It would be a major step in the right direction. But I think many ethical vegans are heavy on the drama of trying to be a "Savior" that they won't put aside their differences to join those like you.
I lightly wrote about this from a different angle, but am in agreement. It's insane how divisive this is and part of people's entire identity. I respect coming at it from a spiritual place as I try to do the same and as such my diet is changing. The family get together's and peer pressure on either side is awful and I fail sometimes at holding msyelf to my own standards. The obsessive aspect of it really drives me nuts. I know people on both sides that constantly proselytize as if either diet will save them and they are like preachers of the dinner plate that forget to bless the food. I've come to know that for me, going to any extreme never feels right and what my body needs changes with the seasons. I have many other thoughts on this too from my own experiences where people I thought were reasonable and logical went into these extremes then began pushing aggressively their way or the highway as if they know what's best for EVERYONE and we all should eat the SAME thing as them daily...(on both sides of the spectrum)..I appreciate people who know who they are and stand by it, but what I've witnessed is a vast delusion. Love what you said about "studies" - suddenly a lot of the natural and alternative health activists trust studies which makes me go, huh?
People definitely identify as what they eat a lot. My family was really good about this, so it's a fake example, but in our family there's a family recipe for "hamburger" of sorts. My grandfather owned a bar where he served it. So, for this fake example, my family could have been upset that I would deny the family heritage by refusing to eat the meal my grandfather created. People get that upset, as if you're somehow saying they are "evil" by you choosing to personally not eat meat.
I don't know if it was always this way. Or if in the past couple of decades people have leaned into identity politics and the Drama Triangle dynamics so much it's spilling over into their food choices and how they react with others' food choices.
It is really a "Savior" mentality that pops up, a lot. I don't get why we can't just let others make their own choices. Why do we have to mettle and mock? Of course, by "we" I mean humans in general. I'm glad for your comment. Thank you.
This is a big topic. I am a Christian and also believe in animal rights and ethical veganism. They are not contradictory; they are complimentary. The theologian Andrew Linzey literally wrote the books on this topic, several of them. There is a Heaven and a Hell and animals go to Heaven (Isaiah 11:6-7). The are part of Creation and God loves them. There are so many verses -- as well as our experience in life - that seems to confirm this. I do not view our species as superior; we have power and free will and thus are responsible, as Noah was. God has a Noahic covenant with Creation and the animals.
I left the animal rights movement several years ago because it was taken over by people who misused it for a secular Leftist agenda that included misandric (man-hating) feminism, cultural Marxist race-baiting -- all wrapped up in the guise of "intersectionality." Absolute garbage, and a crying shame that a movement dedicated to helping animals was co-opted in this way. The Lefist worldview is not good I have learned the hard way. It is now a world religion that has taken over all our institutions, but this is not good. But that's another topic. I still believe in helping animals -- including not eating them, since we don't have to, to be healthy. I now view it through a Christian lens. For example, it is wrong to abort human beings; that is murder because the unborn have souls. I see animals in the same light. This is not downgrading humans; it is simply recognizing that other sentient beings have a right to live and be happy and we have a moral duty to them.
I know most Christians don't share this belief, but I know it's right to help animals and not harm them. It's more correct to say that Christians believe it's good to help animals but are not consistent in this practice in terms of how they live -- especially diet. That having been said, we should not be self-righteous or consider ourselves morally superior. We are all sinners, as St. Paul said in Romans. No one is righteous, not one. I have lapsed into sin in my life; we all have. But "if you love me" (God said) "you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15). That includes not committing murder. Many will say killing animals is not murder, but it is. They are alive, they have souls, they want to live. They are people, just of a different species. The Parable of the Good Samaritan is about extending Christian charity to others not like you.
Yes, I believe it is murder to kill a defenseless animal, unless your very survival depends on it -- which in 99.9% of the cases it does not in this day and age. People in the ancient Middle East needed to eat animals to survive; we do not. Paying someone else to do it and pretending it's okay -- how is that different?
But unlike the animal rights world, which can be all-encompassing and a religion unto itself -- even a form of idolatry akin to pantheism -- Christianity is certainly bigger than one cause or issue. It includes love for humanity as well, which many AR activists fail to do: they become misanthropes, haters of humanity. That is not godly. I was once a misanthrope who -- like many ARAs -- wanted humanity to die out for the sake of the animals, but that was wrong. God loves all of us, human and non-human, and grieves when we harm one another, I believe. Above all, faith means commitment to God, who is prior to and above all of Creation; but respecting Creation and animals should be part of what it means to be faithful.
Animals suffer and die in the trillions, many at our hands. The good thing though is that animals, who are close to God, go to Heaven when they die. They are "groaning" for release from the suffering of Creation and reunification with God. Romans 8:22: "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." They leave a world of suffering and go to Heaven. Still, it is wrong, I believe, to murder them. Let them live and enjoy life, and help them where one can. Rescue dogs and cats, support groups that do so, and minimize one's harmful impact if possible.
Heaven is filled with countless numbers of animals, called the Peaceable Kingdom. Christians will find themselves vastly outnumbered by all the animals there and it will be a humbling experience for them -- if they are allowed in! I also suspect that many of us humans will go to Hell, and will be in for a shock when suffering the kinds of torture we reserved for animals in this life. I could be wrong about all this, but having experienced love from animals and loved them as a parent would a child, I am fairly certain that God loves them and it's our duty to help and protect them. The love that people give to dogs and cats should be extended to all sentient species, as a moral duty.
Wow. Thank you for the very well thought-out comment! It could have been a Substack article on its own.
I agree that we were meant to take care of the animals, as they were created to be our companions, not food. I have written about that on my "Christian" substack. I don't agree with some of the Christian things you mentioned, but debating theology is not the reason I wrote this.
I do believe animals go to heaven and there will be a reward for the suffering they've been put through. Even if people want to eat meat, that could be done without the factory farms that are like torture facilities. It's a shame that humans have so little care for animals that they are willing to torture them, but I do believe there is a spiritual consequence for that. I leave the consequences up to God and refuse to involve myself in the drama of it all like animal rights activists (ARA) do.
I agree that the ARA go crazy with the leftist agendas, which are drama triangle perspectives. It's because they're trapped in that sort of thinking that I wouldn't want to be aligned with them either.
Thanks! It's a huge topic. I have been meaning to not only write an article on it, but actually a whole book on it. Christian faith and animal rights both gave meaning to my life. I was ten years in the AR movement, then became a Christian after having left it, when its politics deviated from the cause of animals and veered in the wrong direction.
I was fortunate to learn of Andrew Linzey's books, so it was a seamless transition. Being a Christian I now believe in the afterlife and have the consolation of knowing (or more precisely hoping for knowledge of) something greater than this life, a reunification with God, who is Love (1 John 4:8).
It helps to know that I don't have to save the world by myself (a burden many secular activists feel very deeply) because as Jesus said "“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33). As bad as it is -- and it is bad for the world and animals and humanity -- God still triumphs in the end. This however does not lessen our moral duty to act righteously.
But I have to admit I found consolation in the idea that as bad as it is for animals, they go to God when they die. I think many of them know that and are glad to go there, to be released from a life of captivity and pain - like an old dog I once had who suffered in old age and was happy the day she died; she knew her release was immanent and she thanked me for being her parent. She had a soul and surely must be in Heaven now.
I saw a video by a man who died and came back -- see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoG0Gh1WB0s -- in his experience of death he met God and though a sinner was given a second chance. Part of that second chance was to respect Creation and animals and to approach life with humility. An incredible lesson! I wrote to him and he wrote back saying his testimony had touched many over the years.
All this came about because I lost two dogs who were very dear to me. They were my life. I still think about them every day -- and I have more dogs now, whom I love a great deal. The grief I went through was terrible so I turned to prayer and became a Christian, despite having been an agnostic for decades and even having studies atheism and dismissed Bibllical literaism as simple-minded. But I was wrong to do so.
I tried different form of Christianity but now go to an evangelical church and admire the faith and dedication of some of the people who attend it whereas in my past life I was arrogant and looked down on such people as ignorant -- just as many Christians tend to dismiss vegans. I believe I am the only person there who does not eat meat and they accept that as a "personal choice" -- though it is not just that because my choice is morally motivated.
I was in a Bible study recently where the topic came up and they were quite receptive to the idea that God loved animals and we should respect and love them. I raised the issue of diet and no one contradicted me. It was food for thought for all of us. Everyone makes choices in life and must live with the consequences. I know for myself that includes not harming animals -- though I have not been perfect in this regard. I even hunted animals at one time, long ago, and had no regard for them. I believe I will answer for that and other sins one day. So I have nothing to gloat about. I am a sinner. In the end, God knows everything, all that we have done and thought and said. It's called "the book of life" (Romans 20:12) and we will judged on what's in it, I believe.
Thanks for your reply!
I will check out the video. I made videos about veganism and Christianity obviously when I was studying it and more on YouTube. I just added an article on Substack the other day refuting the supposed biblical claim that veganism is a "Doctrine of demons." If you've ever heard that you might want to check it out. https://leavesofthetree.substack.com/p/is-veganism-a-doctrine-of-demons
In the comment section I also added a link to a video "The Forbidden Fruit was meat" which is an interesting discussion you might be interested in. This is the video link: https://youtu.be/7EBfPhSJFXE?si=_7TZQVgzHUI0zb1v
Another comment. You will see more people talking about meat eating because more people eat meat. No?
I make the distinction between people sharing their meals and posting anti-vegan dunking material. So, no. Edit: I looked back at notes, and saw this 2 minutes after writing. This is one of the dunking on vegans notes: https://substack.com/@enteringmanhood/note/c-69822774
I see some vegans and vegetarians suffering. That's why I recommend that those people consider the possibility that veganism and vegetarianism is not right for them. If you are healthy then you are doing the right thing.
Are the vegans and vegetarians asking for help? If someone isn't asking for help and you look at them as if they're "suffering" you might be taking on the "Savior" role looking for a "victim."